"We should create safe places for sexual minorities in the church," says evangelical pastor duo Pastoral Brothers
When they appeared on the scene a few years ago, they were almost like a revelation: two evangelical pastors who talked about God, faith and church on YouTube as naturally as they talked about memes, politics or relationships. In doing so, the Pastoral Brothers - Charles and James - opened a whole new chapter in what spiritual authority can look like in the digital age. They alternate seriousness with humor, translate complex theology into understandable language, and choose an open online world instead of temple isolation.
Since then, they have managed to write several books, become "spiritual influencers," but also grow old with their community, which they now accompany rather than shock. At the same time, the society around them has also changed - the covid pandemic, the war in Ukraine, the growing influence of misinformation and the escalating culture wars have affected the church environment and the debate about faith, spirituality and sexuality.
A colleague interviewed you about five years ago. What has changed in the Czech church environment in that time?
Karel: Well, first of all, we came into the church "pond". I think we have been influencing this environment for several years. Other figures have also appeared who are trying to do outreach - for example, parish priest Martina Viktoria Voborníková Kopecká or Sandra Silná. There seems to be a growing demand for unusual spiritual figures and they are being given more space.
Jakub: Five years is an awfully short time. For real change we would have to interview more in five hundred years.
So it's still too fresh?
Karl: Maybe. Certainly the increasing polarization of society is much more pronounced today. It was there then too, but today I don't think we even try to have a real dialogue anymore.
What do you think is behind this polarization? Why has it become so evident in recent years?
Jakub: I am not sure. Karl, do you really think that society is really that divided?
Karl: At least on social media, yes. In the online space it's quite clear, although I'm not sure how much it really translates into everyday life. How do you see it?
Jakub: I feel that, at least in the Czech Republic, it is largely an artificial impression. In reality it is not so "sharpened". When people meet in person, they can sort most things out. Sure, there are exceptions and extremes, but in most cases they could agree.
Is it also because everyone feels anonymous on social media?
Karel: Maybe in the past, but not so much now. Research shows that people say the same things under their own name. They feel so safe that anonymity no longer plays a major role.
Has society's relationship with God changed in any way? Are we now more secular, or are people turning more to the spiritual after covid?
Jakub: There was an interesting "shift" during the covid. People who were deeply religious began to doubt more, while those outside the churches suddenly discovered spiritual themes and sought support in them.
Karel: There is a huge interest in spirituality today. The problem is that churches have had their reputation tarnished over the centuries - and largely through their own fault. It took them a very long time to mess it up, and it may take them just as long to fix it. Yet the demand for spirituality is very great indeed, and very varied.
It was the two of you who, years ago, tried to improve the image of the Church by speaking clearly and civilly about spiritual topics. Has your role changed? Are you still such "spiritual influencers"?
Karl: In a sense we still are, but I would say that we are gradually getting older. We are creating fewer podcasts and videos, although Kuba is still very active on social media. But it's not the same boldness and ambition to change the world. It's more about nurturing the community that's built up around us - we give it content and it continues to absorb it.
Jakub: Exactly. It's not that we're more conservative, it's more that we don't feel the need to shock or provoke anymore.
But sometimes you still poke fun - like when you post a status on Facebook.
Jakub: Sometimes, yes, but I'm still surprised by what can annoy people. For example, when we published a parable and just substituted biblical characters for contemporary ones - without naming specific people - it still triggered a big wave of reactions. It's proof that parables still work today.
Karel: You just have to update them. It's interesting how many people feel the need to find factual allusions in it. We took an old Bible story that we've retold before, we just put it in a different context. And again, it pissed people off. This beautifully shows that we are not to read the Bible literally, and that each time we read it we uncover new layers. We are actually doing the same thing Jesus did - speaking to people in the language of their time.
When you came on the scene and began to speak about faith in more civil language, did you run into any problems with your colleagues in the church? Especially the more conservative ones?
Karel: There was criticism then and there still is. But at the same time there were also many people who supported us.
Jakub: The biggest surprise for my colleagues was not so much our style, but the fact that we got into the public space, and especially stayed in it for several years. This is unusual in our church; we are a small community of about fifty thousand people. We do basically the same thing as other pastors, we just had a significantly larger outreach. And that's what scared some people the most: that we would post something stupid on social media and suddenly it would be widely discussed.
Karel: Luck and good timing also played a role. Today, there are other similar projects that we like, but they don't have the same impact. In many key moments we made the right decision, and in others we didn't, so maybe we didn't grow even more. But actually, we're comfortable with it that way. And we still have an outreach beyond the church.
Was that able to raise your interest in the church so much that you started meeting your followers in church?
Karl: Yes, we meet them. Those who found their way to our church thanks to us - or realized their own spiritual need and decided to realize it here - I think there may be a good twenty-five of them.
And others have gone on to other churches, such as the Catholic Church.
Charles: A lot of people also like our books, listen to our podcasts. Viewership may be down, but that's a conscious decision on our part. I think we were an important figure to many people at some stage in their spiritual lives, and maybe we still are.
When you decided to pursue a theological career, did you also choose the Evangelical Church of Czech Brethren because it is one of the most liberal? For example, also in relation to sexual minorities.
Karel: When I started my life as a Christian, it didn't occur to me that homosexuality could be a problem. It wasn't until I got to know different churches that I discovered that some places really had a problem with it, and I didn't understand it. Eventually I landed in the Czech Brethren Church because I saw that if they didn't judge minorities, they wouldn't judge me. That was essential for me - a sense of security and a space for dialogue. And that's what I try to convey to the people around me.
Jakub: I had it very similarly, I just couldn't put it in those terms at the time. I liked the fact that this church had women priests, that the clergy were in partnerships and not bound by celibacy, that the liturgy was based more on the word than on ritual. It was only later that I realized that it was actually a liberal church and that it was close to me in its approach.
Why do you think churches have historically had such a strong aversion to same-sex couples?
Karel: If you look at the history of our culture, minorities have always been either accepted or suppressed. And even in today's Czech society, opposition to marriage for all still persists. Churches often just copy this social mood - sometimes even more slowly, because they are bound by tradition and ideas of what a family "should" look like. I think it will be another generation or two before this is commonplace in our church. And if other churches can do it, I'm not sure. Historically, it's basically been that minorities have had a weaker voice and a harder time defending themselves. But perhaps our church has always tried to side with the weaker ones. At least I hope we can say that.
James: It's good to see how that attitude has changed over time. For a long time the ideal was virgin life and celibacy; marriage was actually secondary. It wasn't until the 19th century that it became the central model. Moreover, for a long time the churches operated under conditions where they had a near monopoly on the interpretation of the world. And because people then had no idea that homosexuality was an innate orientation, they saw it as a kind of "dodge" from heteronormativity. When you combine tradition, power and ignorance, it results in a dismissive attitude. Plus, there are several biblical passages that can be used as an argument if you really want to make it.
It is these biblical passages that opponents often use to argue against same-sex cohabitation. How do you explain to such people that the Bible should not be read literally?
Charles: If someone is already reading the Bible literally, it's very hard to explain to them that it may not be the only right way. People often need to lean on solid authority - sometimes out of fear, sometimes out of anxiety or insecurity. And if you suggest to them that the text can be understood in other ways, it can erode their confidence. That's why I don't tell them they're wrong. Rather, I say, "I read it this way, your reading is also one possibility." Moreover, many of the verses are heavily period-contingent, while their actual meaning is usually quite different from what the proponents of literal interpretation present.
Jakub: Moreover, the passages don't refer to homosexuality as an orientation at all; nobody knew the term at the time. They are talking about completely different phenomena: pagan ritual practices, sexual violence, pederasty. Of course, we reject all that today. But if someone translates a text about a violent act between men as "banning homosexuality", congratulations, if that's good enough for them. Not for me, because it's simply translation crudeness.
When I discussed this with the parish priest Martina Vobornik and her partner, they explained that some of the passages refer mainly to the abuse of young boys, because at that time men could not have sex with a woman before marriage, and so sex between men was sometimes seen as a kind of "substitute".
James: Yes, that's exactly how it was understood in that historical context.
Charles: What we now refer to as a same-sex relationship between two people who want to live together and build a partnered life was not seen that way at all by society at the time. These people existed, of course, but they often lived strategically in secret in order to function at all. It is only today's society - at least in some places - that offers a space where one does not have to hide one's orientation, although certain micro-stresses remain. In the church, we should be creating just such safe places for the vulnerable and for minorities. A church that does not do this is, in my view, failing in its core mission.
This brings us back to the issue of a divided society. Why do you think some people feel the need to jump into the culture wars?
Jakub: Some people have a compulsive need to react to everything that has to do with culture, identity, minorities. People feel they have to tell others what to think. The bare minimum would be to be able to keep silent on things that don't concern me.
What advice would you give to a person who is gay or lesbian, wants to seek faith, but doesn't find a safe space in traditional churches?
Karl: Unfortunately, in some ways it's going to be more difficult for him. He's going to have to take a few extra steps - decisions that I've never had to make myself. But today there are open communities where a person can be a believer, a Christian, and gay without being judged in any way. But they are often concentrated in larger cities. For some, an online community can help. And I completely understand not wanting to keep "coming out" over and over, explaining, and risking rejection. That's extremely exhausting.
James: It's extremely challenging, especially for those who grew up in a tight-knit church community. They discover in their teens that they are differently oriented, but at the same time they have friendships, bonds, a sense of home in that community. Admitting that out loud is then very difficult. And seeking a new community - perhaps in a different denomination - is a huge life change for a seventeen-year-old. Often they end up preferring not to tell anyone in the church, and when the word eventually gets out, they leave. Or they just move to a bigger city where they find a more open environment.
The Evangelical Church of Czech Brethren has voted to bless same-sex couples, but even in your church it depends on the personal conscience of the individual minister. How are you two doing? Have you blessed any same-sex couples?
Charles: Not yet, according to the recently passed partnership amendment, but I have blessed two women. They had to be married by a registrar first, because it couldn't be done ecclesiastically then. I then conducted the ceremony. This was last year - before the law was changed - but I was not discouraged that it couldn't be done "officially".
Jakub: I once blessed without rules. And the second time I blessed under the new rules, which means that I not only blessed but also officially entered into a partnership.
Does this preparation require a different process than for a heterosexual couple?
Charles: No. It's exactly the same questions, the same circuits, the same preparation.
Jakub: I thought for a while whether I should change anything, but after twenty seconds I realized that it was nonsense. It's exactly the same. The only practical hitch is the ritual of arrival - for heteroparents, the groom waits for the bride. Here, there can be two brides. Once a couple said to me, "I'm the groom, she's the bride," so it was clear. Other times, they just came together. The rituals are simply fixed, but they're very easy to modify.
Can someone outside your community come to you and ask for a blessing?
Charles: Yes, they can.
James: Yes, but I always explain that it will be a service: there will be a Bible, a prayer, a sermon. If that's what they want, I'm happy to come. If they just want a symbolic ceremony without a spiritual level, it's useless to invite the pastor.
Charles: And sometimes people really just want "those influencers". For example, we get an e-mail: 'The registrar won't go, we are not believers, we don't want the blessing, but could you come?' If someone wants a priest, he must count on prayer and blessing.
How does the approval process work? Does the pastor have to get the approval of the elders?
Jacob: It depends a lot on the particular congregation. Some actually address this and require the pastor to seek approval, a stricter interpretation of our orders sometimes leads to this. But most elderships just acknowledge it - the pastor will announce that he's going to marry so-and-so couple. For it used to be assumed that all members of a church were automatically on its register as well, except that nowadays people are kept mainly on state registers, and our power to marry is more a historical tradition than a real power.
Charles: I keep it simple, I just report the date. Most of the time it's non-church couples who want God's blessing, so it would be absurd for the elders who don't know them to decide.
Charles: Exactly. Most of the people who come to me are thirty-somethings with mortgages, kids or cats. What should I tell them about partnership? Rather, I open up with them the questions that partners should ask themselves in life - about the relationship, about themselves, about what they want. It's an opportunity to say nice and important things out loud. But I don't feel the need to somehow "test" them to see if they're ready. They know best.
What do you see as the biggest social threat today?
Karel: Russia.
Jakub: Russia, and the disinformation associated with it. They have a clear goal: to undermine trust. If we stop trusting institutions, the media, the state, we will eventually stop trusting each other. And I think this is the biggest problem, the erosion of basic interpersonal trust.
Karel: I saw a headline somewhere saying that Czechs trust each other the least in the whole EU.
You often touch on politics in your social media posts. Have you ever received criticism from your church that clergymen should not get involved in politics?
Jakub: Probably not from our church, right, Karl?
Karl: Occasionally, someone will chime in - along the lines of "Mr. Pastor, you shouldn't do that" - or there will be some critical comment. But nothing fundamental.
Jakub: In our country there is a great emphasis on civil society, public debate and a democratic environment. And because we're "perverts" on the Bible and its interpretation, we know full well that the relationship between faith, power and politics is absolutely fundamental in it. So political commentary is not inappropriate for our church. Rather, the criticism comes from the outside: "Stay out of politics, mind your own business."
Do you have any other projects in the pipeline to take Pastoral Brothers forward?
Karl: That's a good question...
Jakub: Shall we reveal it?
Karel: We're thinking about it now. We have more discussion and planning to do. Kuba would like to write a fourth book, but I don't know what to write about yet.
Jakub: It's at the stage now where we're letting it settle in our heads. We'd like to write another book. Social media will go on, but we might be more writing and thinking than shooting.
So more posting and commenting on current events than video content?
Karl: That's right. Reelska completely passed us by - it didn't work out and we didn't really have the internal appetite for it. So we're going back to what comes naturally to us: text, books and prayers.
Jakub: And there's a simple rule on TikTok: either people follow you because you're awkward or because you make really good content. And we definitely didn't want to fit into the former category, which is entertaining teenagers just by "cringing" them.
Karl: We're getting older.
