"Marriage is hollowed out, I don't know why we want it," says a gay man who believes the issue of gay and lesbian parenting only divides society
Jirka, you make no secret of the fact that you are gay - just as you make no secret of the fact that you are quite conservative. But can you explain how you imagine a "conservative gay"?
I don't like stereotypes, but even today I often come across a number of them concerning gay people. Especially the ones about effeminate behaviour, the division of roles... a lot of people also have the idea that my only concern is which bar I can find a one-night stand in. I may be gay, but I don't want to live up to those fantasies. I'm a guy, so I'm interested in guy stuff. I don't put it past anyone that I have a man at home instead of a woman. And I think we should be happy with the way things are and not dig too much into the hornet's nest. Not shouting loudly, not kicking around and appreciating what we have. Is there any point in public display? It doesn't. Let's hold our noses and ideally try to fit in with the majority without too much excess.
What do you mean?
Society, it seems to me, has become much more sensitive to differences in recent years. I'm certainly glad that I can have a partner nowadays and most people won't consider me a pervert. For that, of course, I am grateful to the former activists. But I would also say that everything has its limits, and that goes for activism as well. While some might want to see marriage for all now, I feel we should slow down. The activism in recent years has been rather counterproductive for us. You just have to look around.
So would you prefer that those fighting for LGBT rights curtail their activities?
I understand that everyone can do what they want. But these people act in such a way that mainstream society can get the impression that they speak for all gays, lesbians... only they don't. They certainly don't speak for me - and they don't speak for a whole host of other people who are distancing themselves from what these activists are doing. There are quite a few of us who still have more conservative views, you'd be surprised. And we don't fight very hard for marriage, for example, because we don't think it makes sense to antagonize a number of people who have accepted us up until now because of it.
So let's go back to the conservatism in the context of marriage for all that you alluded to. How do you view marriage? And how would you envision the ideal model for institutionalizing gay and lesbian relationships?
I probably wouldn't get completely bogged down in understanding marriage. I think the argument stands and falls on that notion. And I just don't care what I call the union with my partner - what's important to me is the equality of rights. And that's what the new definition of partnership gets in the current voted definition, so I'm happy with that.
But the question of parenthood has completely dropped out of the proposal...
Well, that really brings us back to my conservatism. I have no problem "leaving" marriage to heterosexuals. I mean, it's falling apart under their hands anyway - but they can keep lying to themselves about how important it is to society. (Laughs) I don't really understand why we gays - and lesbians - care so much about marriage when the last few decades have shown how dysfunctional that model is. And the children? I really have my feet on the ground on this one. I don't want to hold anything against anyone, but hand on heart - how many of us gays really want to have kids, relative to those who don't? I'd say the minimum. So why make such a big deal about a fraction of a minority of the population?
You only talk about gays, but what about lesbians - are you also convinced that most of them don't want children?
They have it easier. (Laughs) I mean, the conception thing. No, I don't want to make light of it, maybe lesbians are more inclined to parent. And I'm also aware of the problematic situation of children who grow up in families with gay fathers or lesbian mothers. But again, I'd like to point out that their numbers are still small given the hullabaloo surrounding all this. And how many people in the straight majority are gradually turning it against us. I just don't think it's worth it.
But in many foreign countries (especially) towards the west, they have accepted marriage for all, including all the rights associated with parenthood...
But I'm not taking that away from them, and I'm not saying it's wrong. But obviously the social setup in those countries is different than ours. And above all, there is a different political representation. In our country, the issue of marriage for all has simply become a hollowed out political issue instead of a question of equal rights. It is a topic that only serves to further divide people. What divisiveness - outright divisiveness! I just don't like that.
So you're happy with how the new partnership should be defined?
I'm not saying I'm jumping for joy. I understand the criticisms that are being made, but I don't think they are justified in the context of our situation. Let's be glad that some further alignment of rights has come at all. I appreciate it. I would also say that we should really take a break from this subject now, because we are really getting on a lot of people's nerves. And I can understand that too, unfortunately there are a lot of much bigger issues around us right now that affect a much larger part of society. So whether anyone likes it or not, marriage for all is just pretty marginal in this context. Which also applies to the issue with children. Sure, I understand the activist argument about the unconditional equality we should ideally achieve. It's just that we don't live in an ideal world or an ideal country. So let's acknowledge that and at least be grateful for what we have.
