Petr (43): "My partner and I adopted a Romani boy. Because of the reactions in the Czech Republic, we moved abroad."
Petra, you and your partner did not have an easy journey to parenthood, but eventually you managed to "break through" the system and you have been raising a baby boy together for three years now. What were your beginnings as a dad?
We got our Vojta when he was a year old. Those beginnings were really very difficult because it was obvious that the change of environment and caregiver was causing him problems. But this is generally the situation of all children who go through adoption. Anyway, I can say from my own experience that the sooner children get into a new family, the better. We had to fight with some trauma for a long time and it took Vojta a long time to find his way to us. But time has fixed everything.
Were you able to cope with the situation on your own, or did you have someone helping you?
We had to attend courses for adoptive parents before the adoption and the Natama centre prepared us for all the problems arising from the adoption and its effects on the child. In addition, we are still clients today, so we can consult all the problems - either in person when we are in the Czech Republic or even before Skype. I am very grateful for this help, not only were we prepared to explain that Vojta is adopted, but we also consulted the fact that we are not a traditional family - of course it is necessary to explain this to the child adequately for his age.
However, one thing is usually theory and another is practice - did your expectations match what came when you finally had Vojta at home?
At first I was worried, I had various states where I thought - my God, what have I got myself into, after all, taking care of a child is totally psycho! (laughs). But as it turned out, all parents struggle with this, regardless of gender and orientation. Even today there are days when I am literally "full of it", but I discuss it with other parents and they tell me that it is the same everywhere. And that always puts me at ease (laughs).
You and Honza are definitely not exactly the same as ordinary parents in one thing, you are two dads after all. Also because of the "absence" of a representative of the other sex, people often look down on same-sex families. What about you and parenting roles? Have you and your partner split them?
The psychologist from Natama calls me "mommy" as a joke (laughs). But it's a fact that I'm like a mom to Vojta - I'm the one who is with him all day, taking care of him from morning till night. And my dad, Honza, is the one who earns money and should provide for us (laughs). It's really funny, the division of roles, but when I talk about the problems we have in front of other parents, it turns out that these are classic problems of a normal family. For example, our doctor says that our family is completely different, but actually it's exactly the same as any other heterosexual family.
Would you say that Vojt doesn't miss his mother - I simply mean his wife? According to some opponents of same-sex parenting, a child can't do without a mother and father...
I dare say that the child simply needs to have one caring person to devote himself to him, and the other one (or the one) in the family to provide for him. Primarily, though, the child must have that one person to whom he has the very closest attachment, which in our case is me. But even though I refused to put Vojta in a nursery, which is common in the Netherlands, I have to say that I will never fully understand the feeling of motherhood, of course, because I am not the mother who carried and gave birth to the child. So maybe I have a different relationship with Vojt, but I absolutely love him - but unlike mothers, I guess I'm not that anxious. I don't have that maternal panic that I observe at the playground, for example, where there are kids with their moms. I'm free from that and actually maybe I give Vojt more of that freedom. But the truth is that I think the female element is showing a little bit, Vojta is just more curious about women (laughs).
What do you mean?
Because Vojta doesn't have a wife at home, so he is interested in women - it makes for quite humorous situations, for example when he asks me in public why a lady has such big breasts and I don't have them (laughs)... But as far as female role models are concerned, Vojta has female teachers in kindergarten, they will be at school too, and we see a lot of Czech friends who live here. Vojta needs someone who gives him a background and security and he has that with us, he loves to cuddle, he is always with me. And I enjoy it, it's very nice and I know it won't last much longer.
How do you ever manage to explain to a four-year-old boy that he has a dad and a dad at home instead of a mum and a dad?
It's a fact that we don't know any other two dads here, there are only two moms, but we don't keep in touch with them. So we couldn't show Vojt concrete examples, which would have been better. But we try to explain it to him. Of course, as soon as Vojta started kindergarten, he started to ask why other children are picked up by his mommy and him and why he doesn't have that mommy at home. But we were prepared for that situation to arise. In Natama we discussed this with the psychologist, so we know how to work with this topic to make it age appropriate. We just explain to Vojt that not all children have a mummy and daddy, some live only with their mummy, some with their daddy, some with their grandparents. And just like Vojta has us, other children have two mothers. Actually, in the Netherlands we originally wanted to look for a support group for same-sex parents that are in the Czech Republic. But we found out that nothing like that works here, because nobody addresses the gender and orientation of the parents at all.
Petr and Honza moved to the Netherlands for their sonPhoto: Archiv Petra a Honzy
Even though you literally pulled off a stunt in the Czech Republic and became the first gay couple living in a registered partnership to adopt a child, you and your partner eventually decided to move to the Netherlands. Why? Was it because of the better acceptance of LGBT people?
Not at all. We didn't even want to move. But you change your mind and life changes. Although the whole adoption process was quite annoying, the main reason was people's attitude towards Vojt. He's Roma. I personally experienced discrimination, homophobic attacks, yet I was not afraid that Vojta would face this because of us. But I felt that I couldn't let him grow up in such a negative racist environment. Back in the Czech Republic, when Vojta was little, we experienced a lot of racist remarks. It bothered me that people looked at me as a strange daddy, they even asked me where my little boy's mother was. But it also happened that they told me what a handsome black boy Vojta was. When I answered that he was Romani, they usually started to make strange faces, and I found myself wondering if I should even say that he was Romani. But I'm not going to pretend that he's black...Then I was mainly afraid that when he goes to kindergarten and school, he will hear allusions to being darker. You just can't do that to a child...
So the situation is different in the Netherlands?
The Netherlands is considered one of the best countries for raising children and I can only confirm that. In the Czech Republic there is simply no difference, even the children are very influenced by their parents, who often have views like in the Middle Ages. That's why we have decided to stay here for the time being, even though that was not the original plan. We agreed with the other expats (foreigners who also decided to settle in the Netherlands, ed.) who decided to stay here mainly for the children. Vojta has had a very happy childhood here, he hasn't experienced questions like "why are you so dark" and "why is your hair so curly", no one calls him "you gypsy". We haven't encountered any problems in kindergarten either. He is a very fragile child and the Czech attitude would just hurt him. On the other hand, the mix of nationalities here is very diverse, so no one is surprised by anything.
It is true that the Netherlands is a very open country. So you probably didn't run into the problems of being a "rainbow family" either...
We are perfectly happy here as a family, Honza has the same parental rights and responsibilities as me, which is not yet the case in the Czech Republic. This is very important for us, because the feeling of dignity is really priceless. We are in the same boat as any other parents, we are entitled to the same support from the state, for example, and everyone treats us very nicely - and they don't have to! We are actually immigrants from the East, so they could have a thousand comments.
You and your partner have divided your roles, you look after Vojta and Honza works, but what about the parental leave system itself? Is it also for fathers in the Netherlands?
Here, parental leave is only four months. But now there is a new law, so if the children are born after 1 July, the father can also take six weeks' leave. Otherwise, the system here is completely different from that in the Czech Republic. When I went out with a pram in the Czech Republic, there were only tired, nervous and angry mothers everywhere. But here, thanks to the flexibility of the system, women return to work after the four months - always part-time. Everyone here takes it for granted that men and women are equal in the relationship. So the mother works two or three days a week, for example, and then puts the children in nursery, and then the father looks after the children for one day, because that is what the so-called father's days allow. And then the grandparents are also involved. As a result, families here normally have three or four children because the system allows them to do so. The Dutch are also very proud of this.
So reconciling family and work life is probably not a problem, regardless of whether the family is a heterosexual couple or a same-sex couple...
Exactly. I can see it in Honza's experience. His employer knows that we have Vojta, that's why Honza doesn't work overtime, and when needed, he will accommodate him in everything. Because I'm learning Dutch, I needed to go to classes in the morning, but Honza had no problem getting a home office, even time off when I needed to go to the doctor with Vojta or do something when I couldn't. None of that was in the Czech Republic, we got a child, but Honza was at work all days and nights. But here they take care of it, if you have children, your employer takes it into account - they allow part-time work, but also various other concessions until the children are bigger.
Because Vojta is Romani, the family has faced indiscriminate reactions in the Czech RepublicComing back to parenthood and caring for Vojta, women are classically said to find motherhood life-changing. How has fatherhood changed your and your partner's lives?
Personally, I suddenly have a completely different perspective on everything; anyone who hasn't experienced it can't understand it. Honza and I have heard a lot about parenthood, but you still can't imagine it unless you experience it for yourself. Anyway, parenthood has filled us up completely, to the full. Personally, I know what's important, I know that Vojta is a priority, and I want him to be happy, to have a good life, to be well-behaved and to live in an open society. Just to see that things can be different than in the Czech Republic, that's essential for me, to enjoy the diversity here. The fact that even though we are all different, in the end we are all the same. And that's what everyone learns here from a young age. And not only in relation to different races, but also, for example, to people with disabilities, whom the state is trying to successfully integrate into society here, not to exclude them from it.
Would you recommend other (Czech) fathers to get more involved in childcare?
I would recommend it to Czech dads, of course, but the problem in the Czech Republic is that employers are not prepared for this at all. The mother is at home with the children, the father works his ass off because he has the obligation to provide for the family. Moreover, the wife usually can't contribute anything to the budget because she can't find adequate part-time work with the children. It's a complex problem that needs time - until society changes.
Obviously, you like having a family in the Netherlands for obvious reasons. What are your next plans?
We just bought a house here because the rent was going up unbearably and we will be paying less on the mortgage. We're going to move from the city centre to the outskirts of the city to a green quiet neighbourhood, very "family friendly", where there are also Czech families with children the same age as Vojta. We found a school for Vojta there, he will have Czech friends there...And because the house is bigger than the one we lived in before, not only will Vojta finally have his own room, but maybe even siblings (laughs)...So, I can say one thing about Father's Day, we have really found our parenthood with Honza, regardless of the fact that he is more of a "daddy" (laughs).
